Celebrating Women's Ministry
Jan. 23rd, 2007 09:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
yrieithyddJust got back from the service in Llandaf cathedral to celebrate 10 years of women's ministry. It was a wonderful occasion, but I found myself slightly alienated by it. All the songs were written recently. They were good, but it caused me to realise the way in which hymns help to root me in tradition. The first three were also problematic because the were relatively unfamiliar* and were all fast with less than straightforward rhythms and that really did not work in the space. We were sat near the back and it was hard work singing them. The fourth was new words to Blaenwern which worked much much better. The communion songs (There is a Redeemer in Welsh, Stuart Townend's setting of Psalm 23 and As pants the deer also in Welsh) also worked better, again they were slower which helped. The final hymn was Siyahamba except entirely in English (which seemed odd as I love singing the original (Zulu?) and I'm fairly sure that there is a Welsh translation too. Interestingly One of the accusations levelled at women's ordination is that it is not traditional and I felt that by having no traditional hymns they were not challenging that. The hymns I did not know were good (and examples of a good modern tradition of hymnody) but a good rousing traditional hymn would have done a lot for me. I also felt that we should have had an original Welsh hymn rather than only singing translations (which are always slightly forced). In fact, we could have had Arglwydd, arwain yn yr anialwch and killed two birds with one stone. They also missed a trick in the layout of the service booklet; it was bilingual but the hymns were printed in each side in the languages we were going to sing them in (and were therefore just duplicated). It would have been far more sensible to use the space on the left hand page for the music!
The use of Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier as the ascription of the sermon did not help either.
The Eucharistic prayer was good and drew in references to various women of importance in Jesus' ministry (although we lacked angels and archangels) in the preface (leading into the Sanctus). Singing Siyahamba was fun too (and I did sing Siyahamba).
Beforehand was odd too. There was no music and everyone was quiet which in itself was good, but it did mean as we walked in five minutes beforehand to see the band sat behind the nave altar it felt like we were late (it doesn't help that there are steps down from the west door into the cathedral). I'm not convinced that the band were in the best place anyway from a sound point of view. I'm intrigued how events like Soul Survivor cope with large scale singing of modern music because it did not work in that space. Maybe they have more speakers around. There was (I realised when I went up to communion) a choir but they weren't audible. They'd've been better in the stalls. I would also have preferred them to use the high altar. They might have been further away from me but I would actually have been able to see them!
To me, it felt a little too much in one style (mainly liberal, although the communion hymns were evangelical) with less in the catholic/traditional end. It's hard enough being an Anglo-Catholic woman who feels called to ordination without being forgotten by the women too. If someone from that tradition who was not quite sure what to make of women priests had come along, I think there was a danger that they would have had some of their suspicions confirmed. There's a church somewhere (according to someone on the ship of fools) which is against having women servers because those who want women servers (in their experience/opinion) want to change all their other traditions too and modernise. To me, that's conflating two things. Not all women who want to serve/feel called to the priesthood are woolly liberals.
The peace was in an odd place too. It came immediately after the confession. I believe there are four places for the peace its `proper' one (i.e. the hinge between the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the sacrament, after the intercessions before the offertory), the RC (immediately before the distribution -- so that you make your peace with people before coming to the altar as it says somewhere in Scripture), after the communion (having been reconciled with God at the altar). I can't remember the fourth. Is it after the confession? I can see some logic in that, having been forgiven you share that around with others.
Maybe this post is too negative, but the trouble is it's the bad bits I want to rant about. I do not need to express the good bits.
The sermon was good though I'm not sure I can sum it up. It rooted women's priestly ministry firmly in Christ's and pointed out that he was a priest even though not of the traditional lineage (being in Judah's line not Levi's).
*Two I did not know and the third Will you come and follow me? was sung with alternate version in Welsh and rather too fast.
The use of Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier as the ascription of the sermon did not help either.
The Eucharistic prayer was good and drew in references to various women of importance in Jesus' ministry (although we lacked angels and archangels) in the preface (leading into the Sanctus). Singing Siyahamba was fun too (and I did sing Siyahamba).
Beforehand was odd too. There was no music and everyone was quiet which in itself was good, but it did mean as we walked in five minutes beforehand to see the band sat behind the nave altar it felt like we were late (it doesn't help that there are steps down from the west door into the cathedral). I'm not convinced that the band were in the best place anyway from a sound point of view. I'm intrigued how events like Soul Survivor cope with large scale singing of modern music because it did not work in that space. Maybe they have more speakers around. There was (I realised when I went up to communion) a choir but they weren't audible. They'd've been better in the stalls. I would also have preferred them to use the high altar. They might have been further away from me but I would actually have been able to see them!
To me, it felt a little too much in one style (mainly liberal, although the communion hymns were evangelical) with less in the catholic/traditional end. It's hard enough being an Anglo-Catholic woman who feels called to ordination without being forgotten by the women too. If someone from that tradition who was not quite sure what to make of women priests had come along, I think there was a danger that they would have had some of their suspicions confirmed. There's a church somewhere (according to someone on the ship of fools) which is against having women servers because those who want women servers (in their experience/opinion) want to change all their other traditions too and modernise. To me, that's conflating two things. Not all women who want to serve/feel called to the priesthood are woolly liberals.
The peace was in an odd place too. It came immediately after the confession. I believe there are four places for the peace its `proper' one (i.e. the hinge between the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the sacrament, after the intercessions before the offertory), the RC (immediately before the distribution -- so that you make your peace with people before coming to the altar as it says somewhere in Scripture), after the communion (having been reconciled with God at the altar). I can't remember the fourth. Is it after the confession? I can see some logic in that, having been forgiven you share that around with others.
Maybe this post is too negative, but the trouble is it's the bad bits I want to rant about. I do not need to express the good bits.
The sermon was good though I'm not sure I can sum it up. It rooted women's priestly ministry firmly in Christ's and pointed out that he was a priest even though not of the traditional lineage (being in Judah's line not Levi's).
*Two I did not know and the third Will you come and follow me? was sung with alternate version in Welsh and rather too fast.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-01-23 10:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-01-23 11:05 pm (UTC)Surely women have been ministering longer than 10 years? Do you mean 10 years of women's priestly ministry in the Church in Wales, perchance? :)
The Welsh translation of Siyahamba I know is "Ry' ni'n cerdded yn oleuni Duw".
I'd probably agree with much of your reaction to the rest. There are plenty of other prayers one could use at the start of a sermon, which avoid gendered language for God ("May the words of my mouth" if you say God instead of Lord, for example), that would be better than being heretical...
no subject
Date: 2007-01-24 04:36 am (UTC)Do people on your side of the Atlantic do "paper, scissors, rock"?
Personally, I've never understood the need to neuter God; I've also never understood why people always use masculine nouns when they're trying to be gender-neutral. But, then, I'm probably insensitive and narrow-minded.
I'm tempted to say, the best place for the band acoustically would be outside; and I'm not just being facetious (although partly . . .); cathedrals (I'm assuming a fairly traditional one) tend to be very live spaces, and bands due to their volume & style do better in not-so-live ones.
What service was it? In the US '79 BCP, confession and the peace are at the end of the Liturgy of the Word (which seems stranger the more I think about it; although I suppose it could work for a Lutheran) . . . trying to remember the '62 . . . it comes after the invitation and before the canon, correct? That would be strange.
no subject
Date: 2007-01-24 10:08 pm (UTC)[giggles] Yup!
Personally, I've never understood the need to neuter God; I've also never understood why people always use masculine nouns when they're trying to be gender-neutral. But, then, I'm probably insensitive and narrow-minded.
I think part of the problem is the loss of gendered nouns in English. It means we do not have a good concept of grammatical gender as opposed to sex.
cathedrals (I'm assuming a fairly traditional one) tend to be very live spaces, and bands due to their volume & style do better in not-so-live ones.
Yes. Llandaf is indeed traditional although not as large as some English ones. It is definitely an acoustical problem.
What service was it? In the US '79 BCP,
Over here, in both England (since the ASB (1980) at least) and Wales (BCP 1984), the confession has generally been before the Gloria, i.e. almost at the start of the service. (It's position with regard to the Kyrie has varied somewhat). I forgot that in TEC it comes much later.
no subject
Date: 2007-01-25 05:21 am (UTC)that's even weirder.