Pelagianism

[yrieithydd]

I wasn't awake earlier enough to listen to the Sunday worship from St Mike's Aber this morning* but mum heard a bit of it and reckoned that Stuart's second talk fell into Pelagianism. The transcript can be found here. What do people think?

*Aber's doing well today as Dechrau Canu is about to be broadcast from there!

Comments

[mr-ricarno.livejournal.com]

Well, it mentions Pelagianism. I personally can't see how the preacher's main point could be described as Pelagian - maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought Pelagianism was the belief that we can be self-reliant because we've already been given the ability to choose sin or goodness. And the preacher appears to be refuting that.

[yrieithydd.livejournal.com]

It's the bit about the Beatitudes as a staircase we climb which worries us.

[curig.livejournal.com]

I agree with mr_ricarno. The staircase image is just a way of talking about the beatitudes as being a one step at a time sort of thing (as with so much of Christianity). Given that he goes on essentially to refute Pelagianism then I think the image is fine in context.

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

I prefer the idea of a staircase to which we are drawn towards by the love of God...

[curig.livejournal.com]

I confess to nearly turning the radio off when I heard it was from St Mike's. I also confess actually to turning it off when they started murdering the first hymn. St Mike's has a perfectly good organ!!

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong with Pelagius - he's not a heretic!

[curig.livejournal.com]

Do you dispute that Pelagianism is a heresy or that Pelagius espoused what is now called Pelagianism?

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

i dispute that Pelagianism is a heresy!

[curig.livejournal.com]

Let's hear the case for the defence then... (assuming yrieithydd doesn't mind her LJ being used for such purposes!!)

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

He was never convicted of it!

Augustine was wrong :)

I say that when God saw the world and it was good, original sin didn't enter into Adam when he left the garden and become hereditary.

We are shaped by the things that are around us, but we are created as good beings. That we can be utterly depraved, I agree, but we are not thus born.

It makes more sense of the incarnation to have pelagianism, anyway. Because if we all have the potential to be God's child, but we eschew it, that is more remarkable than making Jesus more special and less human.

[curig.livejournal.com]

I think we need to define our terms first. My understanding is something along the lines of:

In it Pelagius denied the primitive state in paradise and original sin (cf. P. L., XXX, 678, "Insaniunt, qui de Adam per traducem asserunt ad nos venire peccatum"), insisted on the naturalness of concupiscence and the death of the body, and ascribed the actual existence and universality of sin to the bad example which Adam set by his first sin. As all his ideas were chiefly rooted in the old, pagan philosophy, especially in the popular system of the Stoics, rather than in Christianity, he regarded the moral strength of man's will (liberum arbitrium), when steeled by asceticism, as sufficient in itself to desire and to attain the loftiest ideal of virtue. The value of Christ's redemption was, in his opinion, limited mainly to instruction (doctrina) and example (exemplum), which the Saviour threw into the balance as a counterweight against Adam's wicked example, so that nature retains the ability to conquer sin and to gain eternal life even without the aid of grace.*

*From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

Right.

The stuff I've read on it was more emphasising that mankind is not inherently evil.

The point is that we can conquer sin, but we cannot redeem ourselves from the sins we've committed.

Pelagius' position allows for the redemption of non-Christians who've never heard the word of God, yet followed the nature that God has given them.

Yes, I would argue that we have the potential to attain that ideal. We, however, can't. This is where the law falls down, and Christ redeems us.

Or something like that. WLM is a hotspot for reconstructed pelagianism...

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

If that's Pelagian, then Jesus was Pelagian when he said "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick" (Luke 5:31).

Given that Judaism and Islam both deny the doctrine of original sin, I do wonder whether the Church hasn't got hold of the wrong end of the stick on this one, anyway.

[mr-ricarno.livejournal.com]

It's not just Judaism and Islam - the Eastern Church doesn't believe in original sin either!